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Cody Gough is a radio host, producer, and audio editor. For over a decade he worked as a producer and content creator with WGN Radio, GonnaGeek Network, and Curiosity.com. Mr. Gough's skills help shows to take shape and become even more successful while he works with hosts like Spike O'Dell, Brian Noonan, Nick Digilio, Steve King and Johnnie Putnam, Milt Rosenberg, and Pete McMurray. He hosts the award-winning, daily curiosity.com podcast and Game/Life Balance U.S., a lifestyle show.

Cody has such diverse talents—both technical and artistic—that it's hard to categorize him given the different roles and how easily he adapts to different projects to make the most out of them. You can find more about cody listenting to his daily show on curiosity.com.

"What I see in America is this anti-intellectual move away from thinking. That's something that I could, perhaps, find a way to make a podcast about. Taking people smarter than me (that's the key). I don't podcast to make the Cody Gough show, I podcast becuase I want to tell people something, or I want to help people communicate, or entertain them."
— Cody Gough

Transcript

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Cody Gough (guest): I love thinking about things and I love reflecting on things. What I see in America is this anti intellectual move away from thinking that's something that I could perhaps find some way of doing a podcast where I can take thoughts from people smarter than me This is the key you know I don't podcast because I want it to be the Cody golf show a podcast because how I want to tell people something or I want to help people communicate things to one another or entertain people.

Simone Salis (host): I am see Mona Salus Next up on the humanist today's guest Cody Gough. I am Simone Salis. Today on The Hoomanist Cody Gough, radio host producer and audio editor. For over a decade, he worked in production and content creation with w g. N radio geek network. And now curiosity.com Mr. Golf skill help shows to take shape and become even more successful. Well, he worked. With hosts like spike Odell, Brian Noonan, Nick the Julio steve King meals, frozen berries, and beat McMurray. He currently hosts the award winning daily curiosity.com podcast and gain life balance us a lifestyle show, Cody has such diverse talents, both technical and artistic that it's hard to categorize him given how easily adapt to different roles to make the most out of projects that he takes part in. In fact, Cody this can kind of be a double edged sword like when you need to, you have so many different scales and you need to market yourself or your take part in a prior to that you either end up doing a riffyn or a little bit wanting to control sticky

C. Gough: How does that work and I have to go into every interview and say look I've done this part time for fun I studied Radio TV production in college, I've had a show and I've always done on weekends. It's never gotten in the way of my of my day job. So it's weird. On one hand, I consider it a great asset because how many marketers or podcasters defined who have been working in major market radio for a decade, right. But at the same time, I kind of also have to make sure that they understand they understand it's not going to get in the way and right it's always weird, a weird tension that you kind of have to address Yeah, so I you know, I've always felt even back in the day when I first started. classes in its second city and I are doing some improv stuff. I was always told it looks great on your resume. Everybody wants to know, have you done this on your resume, the more well rounded you are and the more skills you have, we've actually written about this on curiosity. com, it's called the time in effect, TMI and after Professor 10 men who won a Nobel Prize and his scientific colleagues were like Hey Tim in loves reading literature and fiction and all these other things and has lots of interest in philosophy and things and the most successful scientists the ones who are cited the most with their in their papers by their peers are ones with the most outside interest of their jobs so this is a scientifically proven thing that the the wider of a plate of talents and interests you have basically the better you're going to be as an employee so

S. Salis: not just as a human being

C. Gough: and you know I mean sure there's the human being part but weren't in America

S. Salis: America is all about

C. Gough: capital is that me now

S. Salis: so you start with w gn a decade ago this year right How did that happen because you What did you study where did you go to college Did you plan to do this what did you plan to do

C. Gough: it's kind of a one thing led to another deal I studied Radio TV production that was great I got a couple job offers in Rockford my hometown sure I love radio and TV but in Rockford maybe I don't want to live with my my parents for the next several years on minimum wage. So perhaps I'll try a major market and I got my first job interview at wF empty Radio Network classical music station. It just. We should

S. Salis: be the one where Studs Terkel. Yep. So Okay,

C. Gough: one more. Studs Terkel was I actually I worked I went know it. Yeah, no, that's great. I worked on some production stuff with starts with a statistical radio archive and things like that. And when I sat down for the interview, I have my resume and I'm all proud of all my accomplishments and University and I was program director of our radio station and I had these internships and she mentioned Adobe Audition, I have that on my resume. And my the guy hiring the chief engineer kind of guy looked at me and he was like, yeah, that's why you're here because you have Adobe Audition on your resume. The funny thing was, I didn't use it. Our college didn't use it, right. It wasn't a thing I was even trained on in my university.

S. Salis: So with

C. Gough: all the radio classes, all the audio production, all the editing, the only reason I got this interview for this job and got hired was because my friend had given me a pirated copy of cool edit. When I was 12. And I had been using the software for 10 years, I still use my personal computer in college. And that's how I got through on my radio stuff with all the you know, with all with all my class work, so it was weird. Anyway, I was there for about a year and then realized this is not an on air thing. This is not an on the mic thing. Where can I go to maybe be talent, quote, unquote, and I left a full time job there to take an internship at wg n, which was quite tumultuous time because I ended up working like two jobs. So long story short, and working with a long time I worked my butt off as a producer as a as an intern. I asked all the previous interns, what did you do to be the best students and you could be one of the people said, You literally run if, if Jay Massey to go cut some audio, you don't just get up and kind of wander, wander over to the production booth, you literally get up and you run over to the production booth out of sight. And I did that every time. That was only a four month stretch. Then after that, the way that most part time producers started was they would pull from the intern pool. Okay. Oh, did the intern to a really good job are they interested in producing Okay, give them a shot. The tried me out in this overnight show with Brian noon in and out of the three or four producers. They had kind of trying out for that part. Even thought I was doing the best. So I started and did overnights with him for a couple years. And I then what Brian for 10 years ago, I was doing Second City Brian has a background in stand up. He knew on the overnights that first of all overnight shows don't have a lot of commercials, you can only talk non stop for three to five hours. And sometimes six hours with you know, two or three minutes of breaks in those hours. Until 5am. It's kind of challenging. So back in the day, he knew he could rely on chatting with the news guy or chatting with me his producer. It was also so I was on air pretty much from the get go with Brian. And he knew he could trust me. And by just focusing and paying attention to that role. And coming up with ideas. We came up with all these bits. I came up with this thing we should we should fight each other at the end of every show. Literally have like a boxing brawl to to determine who would close each show. You'd be like, okay, Cody and I are gonna fight now he's got a steel chair in his hands. I can see it right now. We're going to take a break and then see who closes the show. And then I would play a bunch of sound effects of chair shots and Street Fighter sound effects. And this cheesy, cartoony, just wacky little 32nd montage and then when we come back, he would come back out of breath and like acting like we had just gotten in a big fight. He's like, well, I just threw Cody through a table. I guess I'm going to close the show again. And then once every couple months, I would close the show and say something like, Oh yeah, Brian Sullivan, banana peel, or and these are these moments that they weren't all Mimi Brian had to buy into them. But when there was an opportunity, I went for it. And traditionally at the station producers were not they were kind of meant to be well, neither see nor heard because it's radio but they weren't meant to be an active part of the on air program. But I here's what I think we could do. And we just kind of went for it. So I i've essentially been on there I mean, I sell myself and I built myself as being an on air talent for 10 years which I think is is accurate even if I'm not driving a show and the first time I filled in for an air shifted wg radio would have been 20 set February 2017. Okay, so I didn't get my own air shifts them is what nine years and for the behind the scenes stuff. I like to throw easter eggs in there. On wg and radio. All of my music productions used either video game or wrestling music like everything we have. We have this segment called Florida news. And I do this cheesy voiceover and I'm like there's a blip on Brian's Florida. This is flirted news. And it's the joke about music from Final Fantasy seven.

S. Salis: What do hosting in production? Do they go in tandem? For you? Like is it important for you to have an eye also in the production part when you host and vice versa?

C. Gough: Yeah, I consider myself very lucky in that not only have I again, been doing on their stuff and been working with on our talent for for a number of years. But the thing with me as producer and an editor and a guy who will post a podcast of every airship that we do, I have had to listen back to it. And that's that's an important thing. There was a news guy at wg n, close to six or seven years ago. And I asked him, What does it take to be really good on air. And he said, here's what you gotta do. Sit down in front of a microphone and talk for 30 minutes. And then here's the hard part. Listen back to it. And I have listened back to everything I've done for 10 years. There are very few radio or even on camera talents. Who can say that, who can say that they have not only reviewed it, but also had to edit it. Mm hmm. They've had to get through all those verbal tics. So does it gives you a different perspective on yourself, the way you present yourself, and also how to work towards a good production quality. I know when I do something wrong, I can actually identify it in real time.

S. Salis: This is what happened. I'll cut it out. So I'll have to say it now. A truck drove by, and they hunt twice. And Cody automatically repeated the last sentence so I could cut it. And that is the best thing that can happen to anybody editing me. That's that kind of mindfulness. Yeah, that is great. So that's, that's the added value that gives to you like being conscious of what happens in the technical part of it, so you can be a better host live.

C. Gough: And what people don't realize is the curse of radio. And I think this is really true is that the best talkers make it look incredibly easy, they make it look effortless. This is actually been my curse, working with Brian Noonan, he is one of the best radio talent I've ever heard just objectively and not just because I've been working with them. I mean, I wouldn't have continued working with him for barely any money from the station for 10 years. And look forward to those hours every single week. If he wasn't exceptionally good at what he does, he'll make jokes like he's a goofball. But the amount of preparation he puts into every show, I mean, he's if he has a guest help print out six different articles they've written or been mentioned in highlight through them raised a bunch of questions. And he'll prep three hours for a two hour show. It seems like such a simple thing, but it's not. And most people who sit in front of a microphone can't just switch it on and be on and be at 100%, I can't do it. And I'm nowhere near as level even with all my experience. And there are some people that will come more naturally to and there's some people alone and you can be a great conversationalist, you can be a great interviewer, you can be a really smart person, but it doesn't mean that you're suited for audio, audio, really, I truly believe is, is an art and it takes time to hone a craft. So I respected I respect people who put a lot of time and energy and effort in the podcast, I respect that you have a really cool setup here that will help improve the quality and everything like that's the thing I can respect and I go, Okay, this person is trying to trying to do something and is working to to hone it and you're going to get better and better and just like I'm trying to get better all the time. And we'll all get better and it'll be great and will have really great products. And,

S. Salis: yeah, so we're great.

Hello, I am so Mona Salus and these st humanist support for this show comes from you. If you would like to keep enjoying new episodes regularly. Please become a supporter now visit human is to slash support

MC bonus Alice and this is the humanist today with guests. Cody golf radio host and producer from wg n and curiosity.com. So when did you start to take classes at theaters like the second city, the i o or the annoyance if you ever did I think the first time I've ever met you was at the annoyance but maybe you weren't taking classes or doing a show. There

C. Gough: you are. Just my first time I met you was a what can we tell that story?

S. Salis: Yeah, that's awkward. Let's do this. The best story ever. So I was

C. Gough: actually I was dating this girl very close to where we are now actually right. And by the annoyance theatres a few blocks from the annoyance theater, which at the time was the by the Green Mill at jazz club ancient like Sinatra and the phone when killed people there and stuff. But we're right by the Green Mill. And I had just left this girl's place. And we were I think we, we weren't dating yet. But I was into her and I didn't know what to do. So I'm on this like, weird soul searching thing. So I go to lunch with her right by there. And then I get my leftovers to go and I I get outside. She goes home and I'm pondering what to do next with my life. So I go over and profess my love to this woman. I have this extra food and I decided I didn't want it. So here's the funny thing. I go by to homeless dudes in this neighborhood. And I offer them both my food and they both said, No, thanks. I'm full. I'm not hungry. And I was like, Are you kidding me? And I was only upset because, like, for context, I was in my mid to late 20s. I didn't have a lot of money at the time. Okay. I was in a situation where I work. Usually I wouldn't work, you know, yeah, you still go buy a homeless person. I'd say hey, do you have money? And I'd be like,

S. Salis: no, because I'm, I don't,

C. Gough: yeah, I literally don't have a disposable income that I you know. So finally, I'm in this position where I've got this extra food. And it's like, cool. I can like I can give back right, I've got a little extra will go room have got some food. I can help feed somebody that maybe hasn't eaten in a in a while. A good meal is just like D. It's like happiness. It was it was good food. whatever it was. I still

S. Salis: remember what it was. Well, was it it was like a sour dough, sandwich and, and, and french fries in this like plastic PS container. Yeah,

C. Gough: thank you. So yeah, I've got See, it's not like I just have like five french fries in a couple Manny's or something like that. This is like legit food. And so much at the annoyance theater, still pondering what to do with my my love life at the time and feeling rejected not only by this girl who I wasn't able to explain my feelings to but also by literally homeless people wouldn't take the food I was trying to give them. So it's like, Okay, I'm at the bottom of the barrel. And then you come strolling up

S. Salis: by you just I think it just happened that I was waiting outside of the bar, because it was too early for a show. And maybe, you know, this part. I don't know if I texted you aware, and then a fine job. But this would happen. It was either the first or second here. There was visiting from Europe. I had a weird car that I was you use here in the US to put money on and there was it was, and it has been locked for, like, fraud or something from Europe. So I had to wait until the morning after since that day, and I literally couldn't buy things. And I decided, do I get the annoyance to get or food and I decided to buy the theaters.

And you walk by you're like, hey, do you want this? Oh,

yeah. And so that was my dinner

C. Gough: was great. Very grateful. I was really

S. Salis: happy

C. Gough: for you to explain to you are in town from Europe. And I'm I go to like, Chicago, we get this little chat. So hey, if you're listening, and you have extra food, you and this is like six years ago. Yeah, we're really grateful.

S. Salis: Yeah, yeah, I was really happy.

C. Gough: I appreciate that.

S. Salis: It made me think, um, you know, that Chicagoans or people as sugar Where did people like from that point on? I got a beer. They asked her for free. Oh, I know. I was like, people are just really much nicer than I thought it would be. Yeah, so let's see here in Chicago here. Here.

C. Gough: I'm glad it could be a part of it. Yeah, I haven't seen you since then. So this is the first just in case listeners like, Oh, these guys are like old buddies know, literally ran, I see you in my life.

And then like, six, seven years later, he's he's got this like, killer setup, and a podcast. He's got this like, cool place of video game stuff everywhere.

S. Salis: We just got connected. And, you know, I noticed that you were doing interesting things. And now you've been working on this curiosity. That com project for about a year,

C. Gough: I was working at marketing consulting firm and management consulting firm, rather, I manage their their global social media because I kind of been a social media marketer and I get this message from out of nowhere. It's the CEO at the time of curiosity. com. He goes, Hey, all these people have been talking to us about starting a podcast, it looks like from your profile, you are have a lot of experience with that, could I give you a call and talk to you about some podcast stuff? I'm not sure I'm into this stuff. That's fine. When I by the end of the phone call, he made it pretty clear. He thought that I would be a good host of a podcast for them. And then a few days later, I'm in their office talking to him and their CEO, and their CEO is trying to figure out all right, I gotta pump the brakes on this guy. He's a lot of this podcast, but like, Is it a full time thing? What are your other skills? Yeah, what do we do with you? They figured out I've got this background. And as we've discussed earlier, tons of other stuff from marketing that SEO to social media and stuff. And he's like, yeah, I think we can, we can make a role for you. And I made a role and within two weeks at a job interview for a job offer for for literally just a cold LinkedIn message. I was looking for jobs. It was like, I like hit the lottery, like a CEO hits you up. He's like, hey, do you want to do a podcast and like, have a salary job doing that? And it's like, What? Who does this happen to? So we do the Curiosity podcast, we don't have to start up. So it's a small crew, you know, we don't have 30 production people like radio lab or what Ray Yeah, so we come up with what's realistic for our production time. I say, look, I can interview experts. professors have got contacts over the years of w gn, I've got PR people, I know, let's, let's get some people in here. I'll interview them build little podcast studio, and then our managing editor Ashley heymer, who's now my co host. Yeah, she's been there since a little bit before I started, she's I picked up really early on that she is pretty much aware of every article on curiosity, calm everything. We've written any living archiving studies. He is a science, she's passionate about science. And she's smart. And she's just incredible to work with. So I figured, let's bring her in. Also, if there's something on the podcast, I missed an opportunity to maybe mentioned one of our articles or we reference something she will know she can, you shall know. And she can kind of drop in. So she was all post production. So I would cut the raw interview senate her way. And then she script some stuff and then pop it in there. I'd put it all together while Ah, there it is. It's it's kind of like a straight interview podcast. But with drop ins. We have a Patreon page by the way, patreon.com slash curiosity. com all spelled out. And then around early 2018 or management is like look, we're not growing as we were doing great, but we weren't growing as quickly as they would have liked. It's not like what if we did a daily show is the whole point of curiosity. comms get smarter than just a few minutes every day. There's something new we push that five new stories every morning. And they're five 600 words written very much like the skim the, the news newsletter you can get that's very millennial style. Yo, here's up with Trump. This is the DL, you know, lol chatty. Yeah, Snapchat, every millennial and Gen Z, whatever comes

Unknown
out of the alphabet.

C. Gough: So that's us. But we're writing about like particle accelerators.

S. Salis: Yeah. So the priorities are a 10 minutes long show

C. Gough: ish, right? Yeah. And that was the, that was the idea. It's like, if people are going to curiosity for brevity, then why are we doing a 45 minute interview style? Right, let's do it. Less than 10 minutes a day. Daily Show

S. Salis: and it's going wonderfully. It's going great one best

C. Gough: science and medicine podcast at the 2018 podcast words. Yeah, so I was pretty excited about that.

S. Salis: Nice. Nice. Um, you guys do five episodes per week. Right. Six. Six. You do Saturday's to we do? sundaes. sundaes. Yeah,

C. Gough: yeah, that was on. I know, based on analytics or something. They were like, let's do a Sunday one. I'm like, Okay,

S. Salis: what would you do? Like going insane? infinite budget. No time restraint? Oh, boy.

Have you ever had something like

C. Gough: tough because I find myself pulled in many different directions. I just subscribed to a magazine called the point intellectual literary magazine in Chicago. And I learned about it at a literature festival in the loop or something, it's a few months ago, not the type of thing I would ever think I'm interested in. But I started reading it. And I, I love thinking about things. And I love reflecting on things. And what I see in America, I think, particularly is this anti intellectual move away from thinking if people don't like to really think or have their ideas challenged, everything is ideological. And on the left and the right, it's, it's very much less about what is right in more about who is right. That's something that bothers me. And I think I could perhaps find some way of doing a podcast where I can take thoughts from people smarter than me, this is the key, this is where my role becomes journalist, not not leader, not thinker, like, you know, I don't podcast because I want it to be the Cody golf show I podcast because how I want to tell people something, or I want to help people communicate things to one another, or entertain people. That's my role. So it's not about being front and center, maybe it's me sitting in, in in a radio studio with two or three academics on opposite sides of the political spectrum, or three experts in one particular field of science and saying, Hey, what's the deal with this and kind of conducting and directing from there and helping helping with the given take and kind of moderating that a little bit that I think is something that I've actually started to kind of start to it in the last couple weeks, how can I make this happen? And how can I utilize wg radio to get smart people in the studio. But the trick is finding the right people. And the trick is finding the right people who are are able to communicate ideas in a somewhat objective way. But most importantly, people who can get in front of a mic talk comfortably and interestingly, and engage in a back and forth and not let their emotions kind of dominate the conversation or the ideologies are people trying to push on one of the other?

S. Salis: So you're pushing away the ego? A little bit? Yeah. And I didn't know it because it sounds like that it would you say, I am not interested in doing the cargo show, necessarily. But I want to promote this ideas. Why do you think this is if this is happening in America? Why do you think it's happening right now? Is there any driving force for that? And how do you think that the sentiment that you have of creating and and, and just diffusion of thinking and culture can help correct, adjust or integrate this problem?

C. Gough: Yeah, the reason I think it's happening now, I think there's probably lots of factors that historians or other academic, so he's better equipped to answer. But I do think part of it is our constant information overload. And that has become such a cliche, right? It's such a throwaway. Oh, there's too much information is information overload, the media is everywhere. But scientifically, this is true, I interviewed David salvo, the author of what makes your brain happy and why you should do the opposite. And it's a book about our cognitive biases. And he's like, Look, your brain take shortcuts, your brain you cannot you make sticks. Yeah, I can't have to. I can't look at this table, right? I can't look in touch this table and have to consciously think, oh, if I touch it, will it be solid? Oh, is it there is a really brown like know, your brain has figured out this is table Okay, I am looking at table I am hitting table now for no reason, which I don't know why I'm doing that. But this is this is this one little thing that our brain does. And our brains are doing this all the time. And information overload is part of that when you are confronted with information, there's confirmation bias, you're more likely to believe it. If it's something you already believe there's motivated reasoning, even if you're confronted with, with information that you don't agree with, or, or is contrary to what you believe, you will now do mental backflips to justify and rationalize why what you believe is what you believe there. There's the backfire effect, which is sometimes when you're presented with contrary evidence, your you believe in your point of view more strongly. And some of these are evolutionary, some of these are just the way we were built to protect our egos, or to protect our brains and the social media and the internet. human evolution has not been designed to adapt us to this world, we have created an environment of information and technology and constant communication that literally doesn't work with the human brain. So on one hand, being aware of these biases can help a lot of people because you can't just switch off a way your brain works, right. And I think the more people are aware of them, the better I mean, people are leaving Facebook. And that's in no small part to the fact that more people know that they're doing things with your data that are not very,

S. Salis: and your brain cognitive science and your

C. Gough: behaviors. Yeah, they're hacking on smartphones are literally designed like gambling machines,

S. Salis: you know, a lot of machine,

C. Gough: but I mean, yeah, exactly. Like a slot machine. If I if I pull up my phone right now, maybe you'll have a notification to Ching. I when maybe I won't. Oh, I lose. But if I pick up my phone right now, um, gambling, and that gives you the same exact dope, I'm

S. Salis: sure. Yeah. And especially you know this because you're designed to one if you're not satisfied, and hardly anybody is ever know, and not to be cynical. But you know, you if you use the slot machine, checking the email checking deviations, maybe something better will come maybe a job offer from curiosity

now, so yeah, you never know. Right? But that's, that's exactly what happens. And in some cases, it can be amazing. But most of the times, it's just an app trying to get your attention. So your users, so there is data gathering and series a business behind it. I'm always interested if in in growing up, sometimes we are we have things that we inherit or live in our family that we do not choose, because we're kids. So I'm always interested, if you grew up with any religious or spiritual background, from your, from the part of your family.

Unknown
Oh, yes,

S. Salis: I was raised Catholic. You were raised Catholic. Okay. And are you are you religious, or your spiritual person?

C. Gough: I would say overall, okay,

S. Salis: on a scale from one to overall,

C. Gough: I'm a bit of a tree Easter, which is I go to church on Christmas and Easter, okay, I don't go to Mass regularly. But I, I believe in what you're going to find, will say will say generically, I believe in God, with many asterisks. And and that's an evolving belief that and by evolving I mean that what, what exactly do you mean by God can change and has changed over time, but the kind of pillars of Catholicism are important to me, I did a pre Cana or pre College in class with my wife, before we got married. We didn't get married in a Catholic Church, which, in order to complete the sacrament of marriage, in the Catholic Church, you have to get married in the Catholic Church, right? We chose not to, but I have told her and I haven't followed up yet. We've been married a year this month. But I haven't followed up. But I do want to go to a Catholic Church and complete 10 have complete the sacrament of marriage in the Catholic Church. So that that's important to me. And perhaps as a ritualistic thing. I don't know my I don't think it really drives a lot of my day to day decisions. It's, it's more kind of lingering in the background, but I can appreciate some of the lessons of of religion. I actually saw a headline the other day on on Twitter, someone wrote an article called forgiveness is overrated. And I read it even though I vehemently disagree.

S. Salis: Yeah, even from the title itself,

C. Gough: and it was talking about the me to thing and I get it like you, you know, not everyone is always ready to forgive their attackers or perpetrators or whatever. But when I was in high school, I briefly dated a girl who ended up becoming a minister Actually, she was very religious, really involved with her youth group. And for a couple years, forgiveness became kind of a central latching on point for me in in a religious context and forgiveness, it's really important to, to realize that forgiveness is not about saying, what you did to me is okay, and what you did is okay, what is it about? It's about saying, I'm not going to let what you do rule my life, or I'm not going to let this hate or anger or bitterness control me and I'm going to let go, I can be so hard can be very hard. And I'm not saying I'm not saying like, hey, if you if you got me to, like, you should just forgive your attack. I'm not saying that.

S. Salis: No, no, we're taking the me to be out of the equation. But but for my

C. Gough: life, yeah. Oh, yeah, it is. It is hard. But you know what, for me personally, for those couple years, when, instead of just harboring these bitter thoughts, and being angry and upset with people, instead of that, I just said, Oh, I forgive that person. And stop thinking about it. I was happier. I was probably healthier, I was more optimistic. It did wonders for me.

S. Salis: Hello, semana Sally's here. This is the humanists honest conversations. For technologically aware, contemporary humanists get new episodes as soon as they are released on Apple and Google podcasts. Spotify. Alexa Oren human is D.

I am your host, Simone is Alice and this is the humanist with today's guests. Cody Goff. Cody is a producer and radio host with over a decade of experience at wg n radio. And he's also the host of curiosity, dot coms, podcast and social media marketer. So far, we have discussed his work and life and Cody, I wanted to ask you something that is fairly intimate through suggestions. You know, the social networks are connected to each other. So if you're friends with someone on Facebook, then on Nintendo Switch, you might see your friend and vice versa. And I think that that happened a few years ago, I saw that you were on Quora? Oh, yeah, yeah. And I remember reading something really interesting from you, which was explaining how sometimes in life, we can be overwhelmed so much by personal events that reflects in our bodies, emotions can be so strong in a certain amount of life that your body goes like, I'm going to trigger this thing. And I have very big memory of you describing something similar. I don't want to push you to talk about it. I want to ask you about it.

C. Gough: Sure. No, that's, that's fine. Because it's no, it's, it's, it's to the mind body connection is, is very under appreciated. I think some people say it's either my inner body, but our mind and body are it's both in the body, right? So one thing and I went through what was to me a very traumatic breakup at one time, which is kind of stupid in retrospect, because I didn't

S. Salis: know you don't get to decide that at the moment how much it matters to you. Very true. Otherwise you would

C. Gough: very true very true. I went through this really, really horrible breakup and I remember distinctly laying in bed, affiliate codes and physical pain, actual tangible, physical pain, just my, my whole bought, I didn't know what was wrong. I eventually fell asleep, whatever, password month or two, and I lost 50 pounds, I went from to around 200, maybe 192, 100 to less than 150 pounds. I'm 6464 inches tall, and very tall, 150 pounds is extremely not good. And finally, I went to the doctor and I was diagnosed with Type One Diabetes, no one in either side of my family, extended family even has any history of not only diabetes, but any autoimmune disease. So this is extremely odd. Type Two Diabetes. I, I don't know anything about type two diabetes, because it's not what I have. So I don't care that can develop because of various decisions, I guess, are certain things can happen real to do search? Yeah, you know, type one diabetes, also called juvenile diabetes, which usually is, is or juvenile onset diabetes, which usually comes early in life and is more genetically linked, if I recall correctly, I'm not a healthcare professional, do not, of course

S. Salis: me on this, but Google is it was,

C. Gough: yeah, it was odd to be 2627 years old, when I suddenly got it out of nowhere. And my parents found some literature that suggested the and I don't know what literature this was, but they told me this. So again, this is not like a curiosity, commerce science tidbit, but they said that it could be triggered quote unquote, by an event traumatic event or, or dramatic event in life. And they kind of blamed my ex girlfriend for begging me diabetes, basically,

S. Salis: how do you approach something like that in life? Because knowing that something happens to you physically is a thing and then connected to your mental state can trigger some kind of guilt towards yourself, or especially towards another person? If there is a traumatic event A How do you go through something like that with yourself? How do you did you compare them now, maybe doesn't matter. It looks silly to you. But it is a process isn't it

C. Gough: for like three to five years, every time I inject myself with insulin, I thought of that extra friend, which is not because I cared about her just this weird, lingering kind of blame, I think, but I hate being categorize as a diabetic and why because there's, there's because that's the least interesting thing about me, I think. Okay. And the first few years the first few years after I got diagnosed, I did not want to talk about it. It just because I was doing things in my life, asked me about the improv group I'm in asked me about the podcast I just launched asked me how am I really cool radio jobs? Does it matter? So it doesn't matter? Like my my sister, or somebody would introduce me to a friend and they'd be like, Oh, yeah, I heard you got diabetes, huh? Yes, I know where this conversation is going. You can tell me about a relative that got it. You're gonna tell me some stupid story. I don't care about I don't care. Like literally Leave me alone. I don't want to talk about it. And I didn't want to talk about it. Because up until that point in my life, I was the financial I was the interesting guy I was the cool guy like I'm not saying I was really awesome. And I've always been a nerd have always been the Oh, look at Cody's blink Smash Brothers for the 30th our this week, right? Like, I'm not like Mr. Popular, like high school football star or whatever. But I was a person that there was more than just this thing that I just think to get away from you. It did it did briefly. And I just didn't have any interest in and I still really and I'll bring it up now. Just in case anyone out there is wondering, are curious. I mean, I'd like to entertain, entertain, inform people. And maybe this is important for them to know. But if you're being introduced to somebody, and your brother or sister says, I'm dating this guy, he's really created. He's got diabetes. He hose he was a rock musician and a band blah, blah, blah. Don't go out to them and be like, Oh, so how many units of insulin Are you taking? Like, they don't care like that. That's the worst thing you can do to a person. It's so awful. It really like it really bothers me at a core level. And I I wouldn't talk about it on the radio. After even after I got diagnosed. The weekend I got diagnosed, I gotta I was at dinner with with this girl. And she goes to the bathroom. I checked my phone, I get a voicemail for my doctor. Yeah, the results came back from the Haas from the blood test. It looks like your blood sugar's around 400. So you should probably go to the emergency room. A normal blood sugar range is 80 to 120 ish. Sometimes you go up a little bit, if you get one ad or something I've heard much worse, people have gone to the hospital with like blood sugar thousand. So for 100, comparatively, is not like I'm gonna die when your blood sugar's very high for an extended period of time, that can do damage to your internal organs. very broadly speaking, again, I'm not a medical professional. But my endocrinologist and doctors have informed me that very high blood sugar for a long period of time is very bad. So I go to the ER, missed a couple radio shows. And even when I got back, Brian had said, Yeah, Cody is got some medical thing when I got back, I did not say yeah, I've been diagnosed diabetes, I didn't talk about on w gene for at least five years, because I didn't care like I didn't want people to define and

S. Salis: re categorize and reframe your you as a person interests, passions, your daily life and everything in the frame of something like that. It does.

C. Gough: This actually gives me a great deal of empathy for survivors of rape and sexual assault. Because I have talks I've spoken with a survivor of sexual assault, who specifically told me the same thing. She said, I didn't report it, because I didn't want to be defined as a survivor. She didn't want that to be her tag. This is an extraordinarily accomplished woman who has a PhD and all these accolades. And she's like, my worst nightmare is being labeled a survivor as her primary thing.

S. Salis: Yeah. Because then he becomes like, because it almost it almost feels like if it's just small chat, but instead of the weather is your blood sugar,

I don't know, I know, that becomes

C. Gough: your title and your label. And it's like, okay, you know, either I wake up, I inject a couple of units.

S. Salis: I even, you know, in my brain was like, This is insane. And then I read that experience. And I thought the guy that gave me sourdough sandwich,

what are the things that you do with your wife? You got married about a year ago? How did you guys meet word the interests that you guys share together? There are positive ones, good ones, things that you guys do together?

C. Gough: Yes. And we were introduced through a mutual friend basically, at a bar, actually at headquarters barricade, and she was finishing up her PhD at Northwestern University, and she was subletting a room from a co worker of mine, she introduces me were at the bar. I spent a lot of time with this girl. And every time we hung out, I loved talking to her. I just loved everything she said. I was interested in curious on what she had to say. I like when she told stories to cracked me up. Like it was just, it was really fun. And she became like, kind of an instant best friend. And we also I mean, it's just so gorgeous. So we know. Yeah, there's helps. And yeah, we just had a really, really amazing chemistry and kind of hit it off. This is a very smart girl with a PhD in comparative literature, teaches university courses and very good universities. And as she speaks at a very high educated registers, read tons of philosophy and knows a lot about history and film. And she's a huge film buff. She's a very, very smart person. And I love being intellectually challenged, I guess is is the thing and just being able to have a conversation with her at any register. There's just so many different registers and we just adapt to each other really well. And it works for a while, I thought I would only be able to marry a girl who was in the video games. And she's like, never played video games. This is not It's not her thing at all. But I'm realized, it's not so much about what you have in common, but it's more about like, it's not about the specific interests you have in common, but it's more about the mindset you have with the person, I think it would be very difficult to marry somebody who is significantly smarter or less intelligent than you it at least for me, personally, that that's kind of where we're at. We're at this level where we can kind of get each other like I had an ex girlfriend who I took her to an improv show at i o and after the show she literally turned to me and said I had no idea what was going on like she couldn't like conceptualize characters people, you know, actors changing to a different character it and it's like, dude, I like what do I do with this, you know, and so to say, I'm like, way smarter than her but like there's this intellectual disconnect where I can't talk to you about a show now because you don't get it and I wanted to talk to somebody gets things and I don't get everything that that case he shows me We watched David Lynch's Eraserhead it's like good god

S. Salis: maybe he can theater right yeah hey rob

C. Gough: you know so it was that that register and that's and that's what we have in common and now we just started taking swing dance lessons and I gotta tell you every probably half the girls I'm seriously dated in my adult life have told me at one point or another we should take swing dance classes I always blew it off because I'm like whatever it's like a girl yeah right like a girl thing okay it's like a thing I can do to you know with my girl or whatever and she'll be into it is whatever we start taking classes I'm so into it I go we go at least once a week outside of class just for fun I'm loving it's nice it's great we've made friends in the swing dance community so moving around and you know make some small

S. Salis: she read the point she does

C. Gough: she does okay actually arrived in the mail the first issue that we got in she she read an article and she's got a little note solid love them yeah

S. Salis: the in the ED Medallia on the margins

C. Gough: and yeah and then I read the same article is are disgusted

S. Salis: what resources do you have because they find that really I'm very much interested in that I started mailing list called the weekly they just because I think that it's really hard. You know, the internet is a super resource of content that we're blessed with. But it's getting harder and harder to find any meaningful content in the buzz of social media and the noise of social media sharing and it was kind of thing so it's becoming harder for me to find good article since so I have my resources where it go right you're leading religiously to find things and you have the point I'll check that out for sure. But do you have any other resources for yourself that you check out that you are passionate about later you go like oh I'm probably going to find something cool

C. Gough: here I mean curiosity com oh my god yes yes

S. Salis: of course curator calm and you know what and a podcast which is available every day Sunday through Friday Sunday through Friday that's how you get okay Sunday through Friday it's about 10 minutes cures calm. Every major podcast platform.

C. Gough: I get the daily Yeah. Okay. It's all good. And actually am if you have an Amazon Echo is on our the flash briefing for smart stuff to hands on what I'm kind of in the mood for Honestly, I'm a Twitter guy. Okay. I'm on Twitter all the time. Okay, I read what people share. Okay. I like to read conflicting and contrasting opinions. I think Joe Rogan is an excellent resource. And I know some people don't like him. I know that you

S. Salis: just need a lot of time. So

C. Gough: here's the thing though, you need a lot of you need a variety of sources. And this is something that that anyone, anyone hard on the left or hard on the right, fails miserably at doing is lots of resources. It's a confirmation bias,

S. Salis: right?

C. Gough: It is confirmation bias. When Milo monopolist was active on Twitter, I followed my low I follow Donald Trump for a while. I am not a Republican, I'm not a conservative. But I followed them because I want to know what they're saying, I actually unfollow Donald Trump, because I kept getting these insane political ads. And I was so annoyed by that ads. Oh, my God, who these people think I am. So and follow them. But like follow everybody. I think falling Joe Rogan smart, I think you should follow everyone on the intellectual dark web. There was a New York Times article about that. It's called the intellectual dark web. It's this like kind of offhand for basically a handful of what you can label them as intellectuals, or pseudo intellectuals, depending. But look up the New York Times piece on the intellectual dark web. It includes people like Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro, who I don't care for it all at all. But I still follow him. Ben Shapiro, Jordan Peterson, and it's

S. Salis: not connected to the actual dark web right now. It's just

C. Gough: yeah, it's just a nickname. But this is a handful of either professors or former professors are academics are people who would label this thinkers who don't really you the means many people in the media would paint them as hard left or hard, right, but they're not there. They're more let's not be right about things. Let's think about things and talk about things. Sam Harris is another one. He's a neuroscientist who hosts a podcast called waking up with Sam Harris. And he has very frank discussions with people. There are many things that I agree with him in. And there are very many things he I don't agree with him on that he's, you know, he interviewed Jonathan height. Jonathan height is a university professor at New York University of New York, some University in New York. He's a social psychologist. And he wrote a book called The righteous mind why good people are divided by politics and religion. And there's a fascinating look at why we are divided by politics and religion. There's smart people on the left, and smart people on the right, believe it or not listener, there are smart people across the spectrum. And he did this amazing, amazing book. And he's been publishing about some of the shortcomings of academia and how our universities are no longer doing a service of teaching people. And he has some really interesting points. And it's all backed by research. He was interviewed on Sam Harris, if you just listen to that episode of waking up with Sam Harris. And you might think, Oh, this guy is way far, right, because it sounds conservative. But no, it's all science backed. You need to listen to the research science is not inherently biased, unless it's a poorly conducted study. When there's research, you listen. And then two episodes later, he's talking to Bill Maher on his podcast. And he opens with a 10 minute rant about how Kevin I should not by any means, in any reality be on the Supreme Court, which is far left. So these are people that tend to I think,

transcend the left right ideology a little. And that's what I like about them. What were the numbers? What's the data and if the data doesn't make sense to you, or there's conflicting data, look at all the data, look at all the studies figure out what's right. It's in today's world. If you want to know anything, you've got a work to know anything. It's not like, Oh, I want to be educated. I'll crack open a book and read it now. I'm educated. No, you have to crack open a book and then crack open a criticism of that book, and then crack open a criticism of that criticism. It's exhausting.

S. Salis: It is a little bit exhausting. And

C. Gough: this capitalism is in such overdrive in the US and we're all working 100 hours a week, no one has the time to do it to create a society where information doesn't work the way it should, and no one has time to compensate for information not working the way it should. So we're kind of screwed unless you want to really actively fight against that. It's, it's exhausting. It's tough, but there's there's ways to do I'm optimistic. I'm optimistic. Yes, I know it sounds negative and pessimistic. But I'm optimistic we can do it. It's just people just have to realize that it's not just going to happen overnight. You're not going to be an expert on X or Y overnight.

S. Salis: And the first step to start his curiosity.com

C. Gough: first step that we stay away from all politics. And we're all science based so that we do what we get. So

S. Salis: start with that Cody guff today on the human is thank you so much coding for being here today. Thank you. This was this is far reaching curry. Goff is a radio host, producer and audio editor for over a decade. He worked in production and content creation with w g. N radio geek network. And now curiosity.com.

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